I'm ambivalent about drag myself. I see the arguments on both sides, but then I've never been to any drag shows, so the only examples I'm familiar with are pantomime dames like Widow Twankey or the odd female impersonator on TV or in movies (like Tootsie).
Of course as family viewing they would have been carefully sanitized and free of any overt misogyny or nastiness.
Personally I'm not convinced the world of drag is riddled with misogyny. In some cases maybe, but not as a general rule. I think most of it is the harmless fun they make it out to be. It amuses me to see men decked out in absurdly over-the-top hair-dos, gigantic bosoms in ultra-tight dresses, and precarious five-inch heels. I don't see how that's insulting to women. It seems to me they're just playing around with female stereotypes. Or am I missing something?
I was fascinated by drag queens as a kid. The family always went to a Christmas pantomime and I would be chuckling at the sight of Widow Twankey in Aladdin or the cook in Dick Whittington.
I love Grayson Perry's pottery and art work. I also love his alter ego, the flamboyantly-dressed Claire, and so it seems do plenty of women. What's not to like about his crazy dresses and footwear (and his teddy bear Alan Measles)?
If a man wants to put on a dress or prance around in high heels, why not? After all, male clothing is so dull and boring, why not jazz it up a little?
I can't see the harm. But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.
Pic: Grayson Perry, alias Claire
It's not my cup of tea. They resemble clowns to me, not women.
ReplyDeleteBijoux: Not my cup of tea either. They don't look like either clowns or women to me, just weirdly dressed men.
DeleteI am not comfortable with them around. I accept that they have to exist and express themselves by cross dressing but, I wish that they would not be so "in your face" about it.
ReplyDeleteRamana: Are they in your face about it? I don't see many drag queens myself. At the annual gay pride rally and that's about it.
DeleteI's a piss take. Which I don't mind. Is it misogynistic? I don't know. I dare say, like with any demographic, most is benign, not meant to offend; unfortunately, for the aforementioned, you then get the fuckers (excuse my language) who really, clearly, have a problem with women. Maybe they can't bear the idea of having been pushed into this world via a woman's birth canal. Perish the thought. Oh my god, Nick. Think about it. Woman lies with man and you, gay guy, are the end result. But, once more, and to be clear about it, that hatred - or is it disgust? - is, so I believe, the exception.
ReplyDeleteMost gays (not that all cross dressers are gay - not at all) are nice guys. But, see above, there will be arseholes - unfortunately, without wishing to be too graphic, literally.
I have had two amazing, and close, gay friends. They loved women (no, not in a Norman Bates way). They didn't make a big song and dance about their gaiety. It was what it was. End of story. However, I have, only in the last few days, on the internet, come across the abnormal. A gay guy, I guess pretty oldish, has so much hate for me, hetero woman, all he can do is wish me to die, apparently the sooner the better. Nothing to do with gender/orientation, anyone wishing someone to die should check themselves into the next facility. What was worse, and that's where disappointment lies, that no one on the same thread, not one person, took exception to his suggestion. Ahhh, all quiet on the Eastern Front. Luckily I am of a temperament that isn't easily perturbed.
Hope you don't mind my taking your subject slightly off topic, extending it.
Johnny Depp eyeliner greetings,
U
Ursula: As you say, some men are arseholes who have a serious problem with women. Not much to be done about them except to keep out of their way.
DeleteUnfortunately the internet is full of trolls pouring out hate in all directions. And women in particular are targeted. I'm shocked that nobody came to your defence. The more we put up with bullies, the more brazen they become.
Afterthought, Nick, loosely related to your original subject, quite funny, and maybe of interest to you: Reading an article yesterday, to say I was confused an understatement, when the test referred to the person in the photo as a "he". WHAT? To put this to the test I showed the picture to the Angel, asking him what he thought of "her". What do you mean?, he said. That's a guy.
DeleteIf my sight weren't 20/20 (in wake of correcting intervention two years ago) I'd ship myself off to Specsavers.
U
Ursula: Some people are so androgynous/non-binary in appearance, it can be genuinely puzzling which sex they are. Did you ask the Angel what specific "gender markers" convinced him it was a guy?
DeleteGood point, Nick. Sorry to let the side down. Being rather startled, I did not have presence of mind to ask the Angel how he immediately identified "her" as male.
DeleteYou mention "androgynous/non-binary in appearance". To name but one example, and I hope I'll never have the misfortune to be quizzed on this, there is a shop assistant/manager in one of our local supermarkets. I dare say "she" is, most likely, female but since she is six foot something, built like a tank, has a booming voice qualifying as at least bariton, I sure am NOT sure. In the motherland there is a word for women who may be mistaken for men. It's not very nice but then neither are spades. It loosely translates as "manwoman", ie a woman built like (see above).
Having read your other readers' comments, maybe you'll allow me one observation regarding drag. I live in a rather lively area which features a place specifically aimed at the LGBT community. They do do drag nights twice a week. So, if I am out early evening, meandering my way home, I will see men in drag making their way to the venue. Some are beauties. None of them can, with the best will of the world, be mistaken as female. There is width of shoulder, size of feet and HANDS, shapeliness of muscled calves (enhanced by high wearing high heels) and HEIGHT. Nick, height. Though am sure that some drag queens are no taller than me (roughly 5"6' or so).
Anyway, forgive me for getting carried away here, the androgynous are, of course, endlessly fascinating. One of my sisters, once upon a time, passed as a David Bowie look-a-like. Yet, say, the Angel, despite the fact that he has long blond locks down to almost waist length would never ever be mistaken for a girl. Just as so many, in the days of the flouncing Romantics or indeed Hippies, wouldn't have. Interesting, don't you think?
Thanks for that,
U
Ursula: In my younger days, when I was much thinner and had long hair, I was often mistaken for a woman on a casual glance - until they saw my stubble and heard my voice....
DeleteIt's incredibly difficult for a man to "pass" successfully as a woman, especially if he's heavily built and has an ungainly walk.
Men prancing about as stereotype women...no.
ReplyDeleteMen putting on a dress - fine. Telling me they are women...no.
Fly: I agree with you. Men who insist they're women are talking nonsense. But it's become very fashionable to believe them.
DeleteI never really saw drag queens as really trying to imitate woman is a making fun of sort of way. The makeup is over done, the flamboyancy is over the top and no real woman acts or dresses like that. So it's all in fun to me which is fine because I don't think they dress or act that way to offend women.
ReplyDeleteMary: That's what I think. They're just having fun taking female stereotypes to ridiculous extremes. There's a big difference between theatrical imitation and hatred.
DeleteMy experience is a lot different from yours. I don't think I've ever seen a drag queen except on TV or movies, and I don't watch TV any more.
ReplyDeleteJean: Well, I assume you've not detected any misogyny in the drag queens you've come across, or you would have said.
DeleteNo, it looked like they were having a good time, so more power to them.
Deletethe only time I've seen one in real life... was waiting in line at the pharmacy. she (or he?) was about 6 feet tall. even if he hadn't been wearing a dress and heels he would have stood out. but he was wearing make up and either had long hair or a wig. I thought he was actually quite pretty. what gave him away was his voice. very deep. it was hard not to stare. but I didn't want to embarrass him. the clerk was very nice and polite with him and I was glad.
ReplyDeleteother than that one time I've never seen one in real life. I LOVED the Bird Cage (as you remember!) and I loved Victor/Victoria. such funny and well done movies! I think of them as very theatrical. which ones that are seriously into it wouldn't appreciate probably!
Tammy: Very awkward when someone's so ambiguous you don't know quite how to react. Do I treat them as a woman or as a man? And you don't want to embarrass them, as they're probably embarrassed enough already.
DeleteI don't think it's misogyny. I've been to a couple of live shows and "Priscilla Queen of the Desert" is one of my favourite films. I think it's harmless fun, and what fun, fabulous costumes, fantastic make-up and wigs, great song and dance routines. And some have long slender legs to maim for!!
ReplyDeletePolly: Somehow or other I've never seen Priscilla Queen of the Desert. I must make up for this glaring omission!
DeleteI think they are drag queens for the art of it. Have you every looked at Humans of New York, or HONY, a photoblog by Brandon Stanton. He's been at it for years, and maybe ten or more years ago he followed a small number of NY queens for a bit, especially the hours it took them to assemble the look, the costume, the make up. It was the same as becoming a persona for an onstage play.
ReplyDeleteJoanne: That's what I think too. Actually Humans of New York is on my blogroll - it's a great site! As you say, perfecting your drag persona is a very theatrical sort of process.
DeleteI honestly don't like the caricaturing of women, making us objects of derision and also extremely misogynistic. I have been to many drag queen shows (and can't abide them anymore) and was appalled they are now allowed into children's libraries and reading to small children without background checks (an issue here, maybe not in UK). I have also been to Drag King shows which don't deem to engender the derision (or have the male attendance) of the audience quite so much. I have been in the dressingrooms of the drag queens (too long to get into here) and watched the preparation, lard thunderin, the poor weenies.
ReplyDeleteAnd you know how I feel about "changing sex". Dress how you want, but don't mock us women.
And I have dated cross dressers who are not drag queens/trans.
XO
WWW
www: I don't like the caricaturing of women either, but is drag a caricature or just a wild send-up of feminine stereotypes? I would also be concerned about drag queens talking to children without any background checks (the UK is supposed to have very tough background checks now, but whether that's so in practice I couldn't say).
DeleteYes, we both agree that changing sex is impossible, whatever the trans lobby may say.