The most prominent pronatalists are Simone and Malcolm Collins of Pennsylvania, who currently have four children and aim to have another three. And they aren't put off by Simone needing a caesarian every time she gives birth.
They claim that child-rearing is actually pretty easy and not as expensive as is made out. They mostly seem to leave the kids to themselves while they get on with their own pursuits, like revitalising flagging businesses.
Without rising populations "there are going to be countries of old people starving to death" says Malcolm.
Well, I must say I never felt obliged to have lots of kids to maintain global numbers. Surely people should have kids simply because they like them and think they would be good parents.
And unless our gender-based culture changes drastically, presumably it's mainly women who would be lumbered with bringing up the children, having also endured numerous pregnancies.
Yes, falling populations may mean there won't be enough young and middle-aged people to look after the rising number of old people, but I don't think making child-rearing into some kind of duty, or making people feel guilty if they don't have enough, is the way to go. Better to provide a life-enhancing culture that children will thrive in, and a cheap childcare system that gives parents more support.
Pic: Simone Collins
There is a movement among us to put women back "in their place". What better way than to convince those who are convincible that having a lot of children is patriotic. Good luck supporting all those children. My grocery bill for two people is ridiculous. Feeding growing children, good luck.
ReplyDeleteSandra: Yes, it definitely smacks of reinforcing traditional gender roles. Simone was originally not interested in marriage or having children, but somehow she was "converted".
DeleteNick, 735 million people are starving , not enough space to produce food, climate disasters everywhere and women wanting to "produce" incredible numbers of children , how a family can take care correctly for 7 children. Here we have some families with 10 children who complain how difficult it is with so many children. I wonder if these people are able to reflect what they are doing., never heard of birth control. I cannot emphasize with those families .We have one child and it is ok for us.I'm sorry to say but in my exes these persons are crazy.
ReplyDeleteHannah
Hannah: Indeed, it's hard to see how anyone could bring up seven children properly. And why would they want to? Surely two or three children are more than enough?
DeleteOf course having children should never be a duty, and individual choice should always be paramount. But the choices of those who want large families are just as valid and worthy as those who don't.
ReplyDeleteIn the 1970s, when Paul Ehrlich predicted disaster due to population growth, there really were large numbers of people starving or threatened with starvation in Bangladesh, Ethiopia, and many other places. From then to today, global population has doubled. Food production has grown so much faster that most places have, if anything, a glut of food, even though less land is being used for agriculture than fifty years ago. The only places where real large-scale starvation still happens are places like Somalia or North Korea, caused by government being nonexistent or incompetent, not by real shortages. In developed countries the environment is in better shape than at any time since the industrial revolution (compare smog levels in any Western city today with fifty years ago), and most of what we used to call the "Third World" is catching up. "Overpopulation" is an obsolete concept.
As for Western societies and their divisions over "pro-natalism", think of it this way. Imagine a society like the US or the UK, consisting of two subcultures. In one, most people have only one or no children, often preferring to keep cats or dogs, which they call "fur babies". The other subculture is made up of people like the Collinses, who actually want three or four children per couple or even more.
Now flash forward one century into the future. Which of those two subcultures will still exist, or at least be by far numerically dominant? Which one will be that society or nation going forward?
In the long run, anti-natalism is a self-correcting problem.
Infidel: You make a good case against the concept of over-population. I've read before that there's plenty of food for the global population and that we're not going to run out of food any time soon. But I'm not sure that the environment is in better shape, given the accelerating effects of climate breakdown - rapidly melting glaciers etc.
DeleteOur daughter had friends who insisted she had to have kids because she and her husband were smart thus owed it to the world to have smart kids. Fortunately, she didn't let them decide.
ReplyDeleteLinda
Linda: They owed it to the world to have smart kids? What kind of ridiculous argument is that?
DeleteYep, I’ll use my pass card on this post, Nick, if you don’t mind!
ReplyDeleteI’ve had a blogging frenzy lately - did you not notice? On WordPress, Sweetie.
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Ms Scarlet: I didn't notice any blogging frenzy, but then I don't often come across WordPress. I assume you haven't any children, but I might be assuming wrong.
DeleteNo kids here, Nick, I never heard a clock ticking on my fertility.
DeleteI have written 10 posts and you have ignored them all! But I notice that I have been scrubbed from your blog list, so I will move along quietly. Good day to you kind Sir.
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Ms Scarlet: This is very mysterious. The last blog post I know about is "Dear Mr Devine" on August 28 2023. I haven't seen any subsequent posts which is why I reluctantly removed you from my blog roll. So where would I find all those 10 missing posts?
DeleteI returned to my old blog at www.wonky-words.com , I returned there ages ago, but I don’t think you updated your links!
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Ms Scarlet: I see what's happened now. Please look at my email.
DeleteOh, the irony of this. Just a few decades ago, we were all told the opposite. Now we have China, with their 40 year One Child Policy, paying people to have more than one child. Stupid. Have as many or as few children as you want.
ReplyDeleteBijoux: Ironic indeed. Though I see that China has plenty of youngsters. In 2020 China's population aged 14-35 was about 400 million, or 28.4 percent of the total population.
DeleteSo we are back to having a big family so that they will look after you in old age translated to the national sphere - produce kids so that they will collectively pay your pension.
ReplyDeleteRather than using women as brood mares, what about pressuring governments to stop throwing money at arms manufacturers and use it to raise old age care provision.
Helen: I'm sure there's plenty of money for elderly care if money wasn't wasted on things like a hugely bloated House of Lords (it now has 783 members).
DeleteThese baby makers are all about putting women back in aprons in the kitchen, thus depriving the workplace of more than half its brains. More babies are not the solution.
ReplyDeleteJoanne: I'm sure there are better solutions to the elder care crisis than cranking out lots more children.
DeleteMary said "I had one kid, that's all I wanted. My daughter has one kid, that's all she wanted. Just have as many kids as you do or don't want"
ReplyDeleteMary: I agree. Being pushed into having kids you may not want isn't the answer to the problem.
DeleteI think less people would be better for the planet. Perhaps what needs to be done is to provide better and more affordable care for the elderly.
ReplyDeleteColette: Absolutely, better and cheaper care for the elderly is what's needed, not millions more kids.
DeleteIt's a confluence of misogyny (keep uppity women in their place) and racism (keep USA white and deport 11 million "emigrants" and slaughter all the uppity blacks). It's mostly whites that are maintaining the fiction of breed and feed the elderly. The last thing we need is over population in this nearly extinct planet of ours.
ReplyDeleteXO
WWW
www: Too true, a mixture of misogyny and racism. And suppose none of your children is interested in caring for the elderly?
DeleteI have been meaning to blog about this issue Nick. It's very interesting. But it's quite a complicated and it doesn't have an easy answer.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is that demographic changes will be serious issue in the coming decades. If you look at the projected population pyramids in the 'Western' nations, you will see a large economically inactive population being supported by a shrinking working population. That working population will be expected to produce the food, goods and services for everyone and will thus need to shoulder a serious tax burden for the state. This all comes from a model of the welfare state whose inception was modelled on an entirely different sets of conditions and premises than what we face today.
I like your suggestions of "life-enhancing culture that children will thrive in and a cheap childcare system" which would be helpful.
Liam: I guess we'll need a lot more people providing elder care and a lot fewer doing non-jobs like marketing and PR. But to persuade people to do the caring jobs they'll have to be offered excellent pay and conditions, far better than the crummy deals they're getting at the moment. But the British government seems totally bemused as to how to deal with the care crisis.
DeleteSomehow, the desire to have children was also never on my “to do” list with, Nick. And, it wasn’t for any specific reason except perhaps for not marrying until my late 30s and to a man who had 2 sons, so problem resolved. Currently married to a man with 2 daughters who have children, so I also have grandchildren. Thanks for the link to the story about the pronatalists who seem to have some unrealistic goals atbleast to my thinking.
ReplyDeleteBeatrice: Indeed, you've acquired children and grandchildren without any effort on your part!
DeleteI am surprised anyone would want kids today. All the media says how horrible life is & no one can make it. I don't feel that way. I personally think anything is possible. I would rather think yes I can vs I can't.
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